*** Posted by Adrian ***

> Hi Rapier
> About AIM9. The most advanced AIM9 is 5 years behind the Archer.
That is true AND the Archer became opporational in 1983! NATO
underestimated the capabilities of the Archer and Adder. So they
did nothing to significantly improve the Sidewinder or Sparrow!
The new Sindewinder AIM-9X out performs everything else in
the world, including the Israeli Python 4!

> why have F-16's in "Operation Allied Force" been so sucessfull
> in downing these MIG's.
Russian pilots and their allies only fly about 20 hrs per YEAR!!
Aliied pilots fly a minimum of 20 hrs month! Experince and
training is the difference!

CHECK THIS OUT! It is about a program on the Discovery Channel.
The US Navy sent 8 F/A-18C pilots to Laage, Germany to work with
the 73Fighter Squadron which uses the Mig.-29 as its primary
aircraft!
The specs on the F/A-18 versus the Mig.-29 are similiar but in
reality their performance is quite different!! The same is true
for the Slammer (aka -AMRAAM) versus the Adder. The Luftwaffe
says the effective range of the Slammer is FAR greater than the
Adder or what the specs would indicate! There are tactics to
nullify the advantage of superior dog fight missiles and HMDS!
Just as there are tactics to nullify the advantage of BVR
missiles.

Posting -"Operation Red October" Adrian at 19:00:06 10/15/01
URL - http://users3.cgiforme.com/javad/messages/404.html
- http://users3.cgiforme.com/javad/cfmboard.html

*** Posted by Keshel ***
Hi Adrian
I would like to express my opinion on wich is best - Aim-9 or the R73
First of all:
You are comparing Amraams to Adders. The Adder BVR missile haven't been exported to Germany so how would the German pilots know if it's worse or better than the Amraam?
Second:
Aim-9X haven't entered production yet so its performance can change, but from what I know, it has a range of 15km, while the AA-11 has a range of 20 to 30km. I know it might be more manuverable, or have a better warhead, but range also counts as performance.
Third:
What you hear on Discovery isn't always true. In fact, most of the things I heard on channels like Discovery is american propaganda.

P.S. Excouse me, if I made any orthographic errors. English is my second language
[
> Hi Rapier
> About AIM9. The most advanced AIM9 is 5 years behind the Archer.
That is true AND the Archer became opporational in 1983! NATO
underestimated the capabilities of the Archer and Adder. So they
did nothing to significantly improve the Sidewinder or Sparrow!
The new Sindewinder AIM-9X out performs everything else in
the world, including the Israeli Python 4!

> why have F-16's in "Operation Allied Force" been so sucessfull
> in downing these MIG's.
Russian pilots and their allies only fly about 20 hrs per YEAR!!
Aliied pilots fly a minimum of 20 hrs month! Experince and
training is the difference!

CHECK THIS OUT! It is about a program on the Discovery Channel.
The US Navy sent 8 F/A-18C pilots to Laage, Germany to work with
the 73Fighter Squadron which uses the Mig.-29 as its primary
aircraft!
The specs on the F/A-18 versus the Mig.-29 are similiar but in
reality their performance is quite different!! The same is true
for the Slammer (aka -AMRAAM) versus the Adder. The Luftwaffe
says the effective range of the Slammer is FAR greater than the
Adder or what the specs would indicate! There are tactics to
nullify the advantage of superior dog fight missiles and HMDS!
Just as there are tactics to nullify the advantage of BVR
missiles.

Posting -"Operation Red October" Adrian at 19:00:06 10/15/01
URL - http://users3.cgiforme.com/javad/messages/404.html
- http://users3.cgiforme.com/javad/cfmboard.html]

*** Posted by Adrian ***

> You are comparing Amraams to Adders. The Adder BVR missile haven't
> been exported to Germany so how would the German pilots know if it's
> worse or better than the Amraam?
These Luftwaffe pilots 73rd Fighter Squadron had experience with the
Adder from what they were saying! Whether they went to the Soviet Union
or the Luftwaffe did have Adders, these pilots spoke with authority! As
of the taping of the program only four of the original twenty-five
pilots remain with the squadron. From what these Luftwaffe pilots were
saying, the performance of the Mig.-29 (I don't know which model) was
about the same as the F/A-18C. The Mig.-29 has a little better thrust
to weight ratio and the F/A-18C has a little better slow speed per-
formance. That if there is an edge in performance, it goes to the
Mig.-29. The avionics and user friendliness goes to the F/A-18C. No
matter what the specs say, the radar/weapon system on the Mig.-29 is
not close to what it is specified to be while, the F/A-18 is.
SEE URL;
http://users3.cgiforme.com/javad/messages/404.html

> Aim-9X haven't entered production yet so its performance can change,
> but from what I know, it has a range of 15km, while the AA-11 has a
> range of 20 to 30km
No the Sidewinder AIM-9X has not entered production but from what is
known, in close combat it more closely matches the know specs. The
next generation of US fighter/bombers will be so stealthy that the
majority of air battles will be BVR! While other aircraft will be
detected by by the F-22 or F-35 at long range while their opponents
will have to be closer than twenty miles to detect the US aircraft!

> What you hear on Discovery isn't always true
You are very correct there!! Most of what I accepted as being valid
was things the pilots said, not what the narator said! When pilots
get together from two different nations and egos are on the line,
their "bull s**t" tends to be set aside after the initial meetings.
The US Navy flew the eight F/A-18Cs from Oceana NAS, Virginia, USA to
Laage, Germany along with one hundred and fifty support personnel. US
Naval Air Intelligence along with the tactics people of the US Naval
Air Force, were deadly serious about this exchange between these two
squadrons. The US Government spent a lot of money on this excercise.
They expect "accurate" results!!

> P.S. Excouse me, English is my second language
There is no need to apologize, if I spoke your language there would
be very little chance of mis-interpetation! Your English is just
fine!

Adrian

*** Posted by Leszek a.k.a. Keshel ***
>The next generation of US >fighter/bombers will be so stealthy >that the
>majority of air battles will be BVR! >While other aircraft will be
>detected by by the F-22 or F-35 at >long range while their opponents
>will have to be closer than twenty >miles to detect the US aircraft!
In the Eritrea/Ethiopia conflict, were Ethipian Su-27s and Eritrean MiG-29s fought against each other NO BVR shots hit. The fighters were piloted by well trained mercenaries who were able to dodge every R-27 fired, so all the kills were registered to R-73s(AA-11s) and helmet mounted cueing systems. Most Iraqi pilots didn't know how to fly, still 2 in 3 missiles fired by Coalition fighters missed. Over Kosovo the "Knights" sqdn (MiG-29 block 9.12B) fought often against 10 NATO planes at a time. I've heard about a pilot who engaged 24 NATO adversaries!!!One of the pilots (after a radar and IRST malfunction) however avoided 3 AMRAAMs and landed at home. I don't think that all or even most engagements will end in BVR at least in the near future.
By the way have you heard about Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots claim shooting down american f-16 & f-117(one of total 2 or 3 lost over Kosovo)
F-18C vs. MiG-29:
Well, in BVR the Hornet has an obvious advantage since most MiGs don't have Adders but Alamo-A/-B's. In a knife fight we can't forget about the MiGs' HMSes & Archers. Any one within 45deg. off the MiGs boresight is in grave danger (in fact some say that's a no-escape zone).
The guns:
When ever I hear something about the GSh-301 and its targeting system exeptional accuracy is noted.

P.S. About Luftwaffe MiG-29s - I have just heard that they are to be sold
(for a symbolic 1 Euro) to Poland (my country) increasing our Fulcrum fleet to 45 aircraft (37 fighters and 8 combat trainers)!!!

*** Posted by Justin ***
[
> You are comparing Amraams to Adders. The Adder BVR missile haven't
> been exported to Germany so how would the German pilots know if it's
> worse or better than the Amraam?
These Luftwaffe pilots 73rd Fighter Squadron had experience with the
Adder from what they were saying! Whether they went to the Soviet Union
or the Luftwaffe did have Adders, these pilots spoke with authority! As
of the taping of the program only four of the original twenty-five
pilots remain with the squadron. From what these Luftwaffe pilots were
saying, the performance of the Mig.-29 (I don't know which model) was
about the same as the F/A-18C. The Mig.-29 has a little better thrust
to weight ratio and the F/A-18C has a little better slow speed per-
formance. That if there is an edge in performance, it goes to the
Mig.-29. The avionics and user friendliness goes to the F/A-18C. No
matter what the specs say, the radar/weapon system on the Mig.-29 is
not close to what it is specified to be while, the F/A-18 is.
SEE URL;
http://users3.cgiforme.com/javad/messages/404.html

> Aim-9X haven't entered production yet so its performance can change,
> but from what I know, it has a range of 15km, while the AA-11 has a
> range of 20 to 30km
No the Sidewinder AIM-9X has not entered production but from what is
known, in close combat it more closely matches the know specs. The
next generation of US fighter/bombers will be so stealthy that the
majority of air battles will be BVR! While other aircraft will be
detected by by the F-22 or F-35 at long range while their opponents
will have to be closer than twenty miles to detect the US aircraft!

> What you hear on Discovery isn't always true
You are very correct there!! Most of what I accepted as being valid
was things the pilots said, not what the narator said! When pilots
get together from two different nations and egos are on the line,
their "bull s**t" tends to be set aside after the initial meetings.
The US Navy flew the eight F/A-18Cs from Oceana NAS, Virginia, USA to
Laage, Germany along with one hundred and fifty support personnel. US
Naval Air Intelligence along with the tactics people of the US Naval
Air Force, were deadly serious about this exchange between these two
squadrons. The US Government spent a lot of money on this excercise.
They expect "accurate" results!!

> P.S. Excouse me, English is my second language
There is no need to apologize, if I spoke your language there would
be very little chance of mis-interpetation! Your English is just
fine!

Adrian

So what were the "accurate" results from the f/a-18 v mig-29 engagments then?

*** Posted by Mateusz ***
[>The next generation of US >fighter/bombers will be so stealthy >that the
>majority of air battles will be BVR! >While other aircraft will be
>detected by by the F-22 or F-35 at >long range while their opponents
>will have to be closer than twenty >miles to detect the US aircraft!
In the Eritrea/Ethiopia conflict, were Ethipian Su-27s and Eritrean MiG-29s fought against each other NO BVR shots hit. The fighters were piloted by well trained mercenaries who were able to dodge every R-27 fired, so all the kills were registered to R-73s(AA-11s) and helmet mounted cueing systems. Most Iraqi pilots didn't know how to fly, still 2 in 3 missiles fired by Coalition fighters missed. Over Kosovo the "Knights" sqdn (MiG-29 block 9.12B) fought often against 10 NATO planes at a time. I've heard about a pilot who engaged 24 NATO adversaries!!!One of the pilots (after a radar and IRST malfunction) however avoided 3 AMRAAMs and landed at home. I don't think that all or even most engagements will end in BVR at least in the near future.
By the way have you heard about Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots claim shooting down american f-16 & f-117(one of total 2 or 3 lost over Kosovo)
F-18C vs. MiG-29:
Well, in BVR the Hornet has an obvious advantage since most MiGs don't have Adders but Alamo-A/-B's. In a knife fight we can't forget about the MiGs' HMSes & Archers. Any one within 45deg. off the MiGs boresight is in grave danger (in fact some say that's a no-escape zone).
The guns:
When ever I hear something about the GSh-301 and its targeting system exeptional accuracy is noted.

P.S. About Luftwaffe MiG-29s - I have just heard that they are to be sold
(for a symbolic 1 Euro) to Poland (my country) increasing our Fulcrum fleet to 45 aircraft (37 fighters and 8 combat trainers)!!!]

It is right! Germans sold Mig 29s to Poland. Mig 29s are the best!

*** Posted by Keshel ***
MiG-29s aren't maybe the most successful fighters but certainly they can be successful even now. They also look so cool :).
[
It is right! Germans sold Mig 29s to Poland. Mig 29s are the best!
]

*** Posted by Mateusz ***
[MiG-29s aren't maybe the most successful fighters but certainly they can be successful even now. They also look so cool :).

It is right! Germans sold Mig 29s to Poland. Mig 29s are the best!

Leszek, do you know, that one Polish Mig 21MF pilot (2 years ago), during Polish-American exercises, "destroyed" 8 (eight) F-16s.

*** Posted by Leszek ***
"Leszek, do you know, that one Polish Mig 21MF pilot (2 years ago), during Polish-American exercises, "destroyed" 8 (eight) F-16s."

No, but I've heard that multiple Polish MiG-23s scored "kills" on American F-15s in BVR training. Also our MiG-29 managed to "kill" some american F-15A (a modified ANG variant) in close combat (even in the vertical plane of motion!).

8 F-16s? Do You know the name of that pilot?

Regards,
Keshel

P.S. Polish pilots rule ;)))))))))

*** Posted by Mateusz ***
["Leszek, do you know, that one Polish Mig 21MF pilot (2 years ago), during Polish-American exercises, "destroyed" 8 (eight) F-16s."

No, but I've heard that multiple Polish MiG-23s scored "kills" on American F-15s in BVR training. Also our MiG-29 managed to "kill" some american F-15A (a modified ANG variant) in close combat (even in the vertical plane of motion!).

8 F-16s? Do You know the name of that pilot?

Regards,
Keshel

P.S. Polish pilots rule ;)))))))))]

Hi! He is (this pilot) a commander of 10 PLM. in £ask. His name is mjr. Dariusz Pacek. If you want, I can send his Mig photos.

*** Posted by Leszek ***
[Hi! He is (this pilot) a commander of 10 PLM. in £ask. His name is mjr. Dariusz Pacek. If you want, I can send his Mig photos.]

I will be pleased if You send me the photos (of the MiG). My e-mail is leszek_pawlowski@o2.pl

BTW I noticed You're also from Poland. From where exactly?

Najlepsze Ýyczenia :)
Leszek

*** Posted by Mateusz ***
[Hi! He is (this pilot) a commander of 10 PLM. in £ask. His name is mjr. Dariusz Pacek. If you want, I can send his Mig photos.

I will be pleased if You send me the photos (of the MiG). My e-mail is leszek_pawlowski@o2.pl

BTW I noticed You're also from Poland. From where exactly?

Najlepsze Ýyczenia :)
Leszek]

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